From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 23 14:57:10 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BE17C7A; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 14:57:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-gw12.york.ac.uk (mail-gw12.york.ac.uk [144.32.129.162]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CF64F3C; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 14:57:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ury.york.ac.uk ([144.32.64.162]:57653) by mail-gw12.york.ac.uk with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YEfZw-0005RS-0q; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 14:51:20 +0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 14:51:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Gavin Atkinson X-X-Sender: gavin@ury.york.ac.uk To: peter@FreeBSD.org, alfred@FreeBSD.org, scottl@FreeBSD.org, benno@FreeBSD.org, plosher@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@FreeBSD.org Subject: RFC: New FreeBSD support model Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.11 (BSF 23 2013-08-11) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 14:57:10 -0000 Hi all, Over the past year or so, many discussions have been had both internally and with vendors about the current FreeBSD support model, and how it could be improved to better suit the (often conflicting) needs of downstream vendors. Below is our current draft of the new support model. I'm sending this to you as you represent a good cross-section of different downstream users of FreeBSD. We're aiming to make these changes soon, and are interested in knowing what else a consumer of FreeBSD, like your company, might need to know in order to have a smoother transition. Michael, I'm including you for any insight you may wish to offer from your recent efforts in researching FreeBSD sysadmin-y things. Thanks, Gavin Changes to the FreeBSD Support Model ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Over the past several months, the teams responsible for supporting the FreeBSD operating system discussed the current support model, and how that model can be improved to provide better support for FreeBSD users and consumers. The changes below greatly improve FreeBSD support, reduce turnaround time for Errata Notices and Security Advisories, provide consistency between binary package sets and the underlying FreeBSD base system version, and reduce the amount of time before new features are included in the official FreeBSD binary package sets. Changes Proposed in a New FreeBSD Support Model ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The proposed changes include: - Moving from a point release-based support model to a set of releases from a branch with a guaranteed support lifetime. - Resolving our arbitrary (and unofficial) 5-year branch lifetime guarantee. The support policy is that the stable/X branch will be supported for 5 years (minimum) from the point X.0-RELEASE is released. We now guarantee a 5-year lifetime on the branch, regardless of how many releases are built from the branch. Additionally, a "last minute" release from the stable/X branch does not constitute expanding the support lifetime for the branch as a whole for an additional two years. - The Security Officer or Ports Management Team may extend support for any individual numbered release or branch at their discretion, in exceptional cases. - A new stable/ branch release will not occur before two years after the X.0-RELEASE from the prior branch. This limits the number of simultaneous supported branches, which will greatly reduce the overall number of branches that must be maintained and build-tested for Security Advisories and Errata Notices, reducing turnaround time. - Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release. During this three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still be issued for the previous release, as necessary. How These Changes Benefit FreeBSD Consumers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- These changes to the FreeBSD support policy will reduce turnaround time for security advisories and errata notices, provide binary package sets that are more closely aligned with the latest FreeBSD release from a given branch, and clearly define the minimum length of time that a branch will receive support. When The New FreeBSD Support Policy Will Become Effective ----------------------------------------------------------------------- These changes are planned to become effective with FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE, which is still a number of months away. FreeBSD releases from earlier branches will continue to be supported in accordance with the policy that was in effect at the time they were released. Deficiencies in the Current FreeBSD Support Model ----------------------------------------------------------------------- - The FreeBSD support model is release-based, versus branch-based. Specifically, we determine if a FreeBSD release will be a normal- or an extended-support release in the final phases of the release cycle, while in reality we have no way to determine how successful the release is until weeks or months later. - We do not clearly define how long the stable/X branch will be supported after its creation. Since FreeBSD 5.x, we have historically supported a stable/X branch for a minimum of five years after the X.0-RELEASE is available. The length of time is not a defined policy, which can make it difficult to decide which branch to track. - The current support model prevents building third-party binary packages for the most recent release from a stable/ branch because we must provide packages that can be run on the oldest supported release from the branch. - Ports maintainers must support the oldest supported release on the branch within the Ports Collection. This adds significant complexity to the tree in general, but also prevents enabling new features by default. An example is the upgrade to WITH_NEW_XORG where these features depend on changes to the base system that are only available in X.Z-RELEASE. - The support model can overlap in non-intuitive ways, making it difficult to decide when evaluating FreeBSD features versus support timeframe from any given branch. When changes to the support model were initially being discussed, the FreeBSD supported releases were: - 8.4-RELEASE: June 30, 2015 - 9.1-RELEASE: December 31, 2014 - 9.2-RELEASE: September 30, 2014 (Note that in this case support for the newer 9.2 release ends before support for FreeBSD 9.1.) - A new release from a branch automatically extends the support lifetime by two years, minimum. If X.Y-RELEASE was initially planned to be the final release from the stable/X branch, it is an extended-support release by definition. If it is necessary to follow X.Y-RELEASE with X.Z-RELEASE for any reason, we would have two concurrent extended-support releases from the same branch in sequence. This has a serious impact on the quality of an update when there are multiple supported releases on a branch. The problem becomes worse when the oldest supported release on the branch has a longer support lifetime than the newest release on the branch. Key Items Considered in Changes to the FreeBSD Support Model ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Some of the things that should be included in a new FreeBSD support model include: - Guaranteeing, and explicitly stating, the support lifetime of the stable/X branch as a whole, versus independently determining the support lifetime of the individual releases from the stable/X branch. - Providing package sets that are compatible with the latest release from the branch, ensuring that new features introduced into the FreeBSD base system can be enabled by default in binary package builds. - Security Advisories and Errata Notices should be more aligned between src/ and ports/. There is an endless list of edge cases with this particular point, but consider a situation where a critical security vulnerability is discovered, and the underlying code has changed between X.Y-RELEASE and X.Z-RELEASE. In addition to the possibility of regression in one (or both) of the supported releases due to subtle changes in the security fix, it introduces potential delay in providing the security fix as the number of supported releases increases. Each supported release adds to the amount of time it takes for: - 1) patching the vulnerability, - 2) testing the patch, - 3) verifying the patch is correct, and - 4) building the freebsd-update(8) binary update bits. If a problem is discovered at any time during step (4), procedure resets to step (1). (It should be stressed that this is not due to lack of hardware, but the order in which the various steps of issuing Security Advisories and Errata Notices must occur.) - Providing a support model that is easier more predictable and easier to follow. From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 23 15:13:16 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98748F9; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:13:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f05:b76::196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5997E261; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:13:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.110] (c-76-21-10-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.21.10.192]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E53C4341F858; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 07:13:15 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: RFC: New FreeBSD support model From: Alfred Perlstein X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12B440) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 07:13:17 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Gavin Atkinson Cc: "peter@FreeBSD.org" , "benno@FreeBSD.org" , "mwlucas@FreeBSD.org" , "alfred@FreeBSD.org" , "scottl@FreeBSD.org" , "plosher@FreeBSD.org" , "support-model@FreeBSD.org" X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:13:16 -0000 I understand this is like the talk we had at last Bsdcan? If so this looks l= ike a smart step forward that will both preserve project resources while als= o providing downstream a guide on how to survive in the new model. In additi= on this new model appears similar to the model taken by most other commercia= l vendors.=20 Thank you Gavin, looks good! Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 23, 2015, at 6:51 AM, Gavin Atkinson wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Over the past year or so, many discussions have been had both internally=20= > and with vendors about the current FreeBSD support model, and how it could= =20 > be improved to better suit the (often conflicting) needs of downstream=20 > vendors. >=20 > Below is our current draft of the new support model. I'm sending this to=20= > you as you represent a good cross-section of different downstream users of= =20 > FreeBSD. We're aiming to make these changes soon, and are interested in=20= > knowing what else a consumer of FreeBSD, like your company, might need to=20= > know in order to have a smoother transition. Michael, I'm including you=20= > for any insight you may wish to offer from your recent efforts in=20 > researching FreeBSD sysadmin-y things. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Gavin >=20 >=20 > Changes to the FreeBSD Support Model > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Over the past several months, the teams responsible for supporting the > FreeBSD operating system discussed the current support model, and how > that model can be improved to provide better support for FreeBSD users > and consumers. >=20 > The changes below greatly improve FreeBSD support, reduce turnaround time=20= > for Errata Notices and Security Advisories, provide consistency between=20= > binary package sets and the underlying FreeBSD base system version, and=20= > reduce the amount of time before new features are included in the official= =20 > FreeBSD binary package sets. >=20 >=20 > Changes Proposed in a New FreeBSD Support Model > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > The proposed changes include: >=20 > - Moving from a point release-based support model to a set of releases > from a branch with a guaranteed support lifetime. >=20 > - Resolving our arbitrary (and unofficial) 5-year branch lifetime=20 > guarantee. The support policy is that the stable/X branch will be=20 > supported for 5 years (minimum) from the point X.0-RELEASE is released. =20= > We now guarantee a 5-year lifetime on the branch, regardless of how many=20= > releases are built from the branch. Additionally, a "last minute"=20 > release from the stable/X branch does not constitute expanding the suppor= t=20 > lifetime for the branch as a whole for an additional two years. >=20 > - The Security Officer or Ports Management Team may extend support for any= =20 > individual numbered release or branch at their discretion, in=20 > exceptional cases. >=20 > - A new stable/ branch release will not occur before two years after the=20= > X.0-RELEASE from the prior branch. This limits the number of=20 > simultaneous supported branches, which will greatly reduce the overall=20= > number of branches that must be maintained and build-tested for=20 > Security Advisories and Errata Notices, reducing turnaround time. >=20 > - Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous=20 > release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which=20 > consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release. During this=20 > three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still=20 > be issued for the previous release, as necessary. >=20 >=20 > How These Changes Benefit FreeBSD Consumers > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > These changes to the FreeBSD support policy will reduce turnaround time =20= > for security advisories and errata notices, provide binary package sets=20= > that are more closely aligned with the latest FreeBSD release from a given= =20 > branch, and clearly define the minimum length of time that a branch will=20= > receive support. >=20 >=20 > When The New FreeBSD Support Policy Will Become Effective > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > These changes are planned to become effective with FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE, > which is still a number of months away. >=20 > FreeBSD releases from earlier branches will continue to be supported in=20= > accordance with the policy that was in effect at the time they were=20 > released. >=20 >=20 > Deficiencies in the Current FreeBSD Support Model > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > - The FreeBSD support model is release-based, versus branch-based.=20 > Specifically, we determine if a FreeBSD release will be a normal- or an=20= > extended-support release in the final phases of the release cycle, while=20= > in reality we have no way to determine how successful the release is=20 > until weeks or months later. >=20 > - We do not clearly define how long the stable/X branch will be supported=20= > after its creation. Since FreeBSD 5.x, we have historically supported a=20= > stable/X branch for a minimum of five years after the X.0-RELEASE is=20 > available. The length of time is not a defined policy, which can make=20= > it difficult to decide which branch to track. >=20 > - The current support model prevents building third-party binary packages=20= > for the most recent release from a stable/ branch because we must=20 > provide packages that can be run on the oldest supported release from=20 > the branch. >=20 > - Ports maintainers must support the oldest supported release on the=20 > branch within the Ports Collection. This adds significant complexity to=20= > the tree in general, but also prevents enabling new features by default. = =20 > An example is the upgrade to WITH_NEW_XORG where these features depend > on changes to the base system that are only available in X.Z-RELEASE. >=20 > - The support model can overlap in non-intuitive ways, making it difficult= =20 > to decide when evaluating FreeBSD features versus support timeframe from=20= > any given branch. When changes to the support model were initially=20 > being discussed, the FreeBSD supported releases were: > - 8.4-RELEASE: June 30, 2015 > - 9.1-RELEASE: December 31, 2014 > - 9.2-RELEASE: September 30, 2014 >=20 > (Note that in this case support for the newer 9.2 release ends before=20 > support for FreeBSD 9.1.) >=20 > - A new release from a branch automatically extends the support lifetime=20= > by two years, minimum. If X.Y-RELEASE was initially planned to be the=20= > final release from the stable/X branch, it is an extended-support=20 > release by definition. If it is necessary to follow X.Y-RELEASE with=20 > X.Z-RELEASE for any reason, we would have two concurrent=20 > extended-support releases from the same branch in sequence. This has a=20= > serious impact on the quality of an update when there are multiple=20 > supported releases on a branch. The problem becomes worse when the=20 > oldest supported release on the branch has a longer support lifetime=20 > than the newest release on the branch. >=20 >=20 > Key Items Considered in Changes to the FreeBSD Support Model > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Some of the things that should be included in a new FreeBSD support > model include: >=20 > - Guaranteeing, and explicitly stating, the support lifetime of the=20 > stable/X branch as a whole, versus independently determining the=20 > support lifetime of the individual releases from the stable/X branch. > - Providing package sets that are compatible with the latest release from=20= > the branch, ensuring that new features introduced into the FreeBSD base=20= > system can be enabled by default in binary package builds. > - Security Advisories and Errata Notices should be more aligned between=20= > src/ and ports/. There is an endless list of edge cases with this=20 > particular point, but consider a situation where a critical security=20 > vulnerability is discovered, and the underlying code has changed between=20= > X.Y-RELEASE and X.Z-RELEASE. In addition to the possibility of=20 > regression in one (or both) of the supported releases due to subtle=20 > changes in the security fix, it introduces potential delay in providing=20= > the security fix as the number of supported releases increases. Each=20 > supported release adds to the amount of time it takes for: >=20 > - 1) patching the vulnerability, > - 2) testing the patch, > - 3) verifying the patch is correct, and > - 4) building the freebsd-update(8) binary update bits. >=20 > If a problem is discovered at any time during step (4), procedure resets=20= > to step (1). (It should be stressed that this is not due to lack of=20 > hardware, but the order in which the various steps of issuing Security=20= > Advisories and Errata Notices must occur.) >=20 > - Providing a support model that is easier more predictable and easier to=20= > follow. >=20 From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 23 15:16:29 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01C282BE for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:16:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qg0-x235.google.com (mail-qg0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7C9429A for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:16:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qg0-f53.google.com with SMTP id a108so6418748qge.12 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 07:16:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=FsxHqz4t006VYhikTEXV/sHurV23kVYnVD2GfxASwJE=; b=N7ZRWqKl+4nn1mF73Z71+fdvGJ6i1RKfVrm+pKjENhjpGN03/x4puP8XUd69TXRySJ 3bKk2EEmakpjyBywCz3Z4oSqJ7UKBnBAZDW8SYI0rOouS1sc7t2RUIVJKX8iRNbPUAm9 S/gPRwrVqW0LekeHSWiuGQwujPEDTmAzNfzqTprjpAzhmsChx00GkuAC34v3Z3bylceM MX+CiYc/U7Z1e4jHuJmQX+Ati5qJaySGF5nArDOTW23f1W3kKiTrs8y8rGeLuV16X6L5 UuAsJ2EQsV38/qAMssfHSYJTRcKgZ7IYUKWIsopeULowoaS7aHNAextoT0qfRQIxAUmr J5+A== X-Received: by 10.140.81.208 with SMTP id f74mr14439951qgd.94.1422026184765; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 07:16:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by 10.140.39.209 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 07:16:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ed Maste Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:16:04 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: R1VybR_k4eIlxqQcQmRvPA1jzy0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: New FreeBSD support model To: Alfred Perlstein Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "support-model@FreeBSD.org" X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:16:29 -0000 On 23 January 2015 at 10:13, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I understand this is like the talk we had at last Bsdcan? Yes, this is basically a formal description of what we discussed at BSDCan with some details fleshed out and an attempt to present it in a way that those outside of the developer community will understand. From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 23 15:46:51 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AA01A29; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:46:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.michaelwlucas.com (mail.michaelwlucas.com [108.61.84.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC3267FB; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:46:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.michaelwlucas.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.michaelwlucas.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id t0NFke4O044335; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:46:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas@mail.michaelwlucas.com) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by mail.michaelwlucas.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id t0NFkaCU044334; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:46:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:46:33 -0500 From: "Michael W. Lucas" To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: RFC: New FreeBSD support model Message-ID: <20150123154633.GA44307@mail.michaelwlucas.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=UNPARSEABLE_RELAY, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on mail.michaelwlucas.com X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.michaelwlucas.com [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:46:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: "peter@FreeBSD.org" , "benno@FreeBSD.org" , "mwlucas@FreeBSD.org" , "alfred@FreeBSD.org" , "scottl@FreeBSD.org" , "plosher@FreeBSD.org" , "support-model@FreeBSD.org" X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:46:51 -0000 This is very well written. I liked the model at BSDCan, I still like it. Speaking as a consumer and doc person: I hope you'll also have a much briefer document that says "This is how FreeBSD 11+ support works." If not, well, I'll have to write that blog posting and attach it to a PR. ;-) On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 07:13:17AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I understand this is like the talk we had at last Bsdcan? If so this looks like a smart step forward that will both preserve project resources while also providing downstream a guide on how to survive in the new model. In addition this new model appears similar to the model taken by most other commercial vendors. > > Thank you Gavin, looks good! > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 23, 2015, at 6:51 AM, Gavin Atkinson wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > Over the past year or so, many discussions have been had both internally > > and with vendors about the current FreeBSD support model, and how it could > > be improved to better suit the (often conflicting) needs of downstream > > vendors. > > > > Below is our current draft of the new support model. I'm sending this to > > you as you represent a good cross-section of different downstream users of > > FreeBSD. We're aiming to make these changes soon, and are interested in > > knowing what else a consumer of FreeBSD, like your company, might need to > > know in order to have a smoother transition. Michael, I'm including you > > for any insight you may wish to offer from your recent efforts in > > researching FreeBSD sysadmin-y things. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Gavin > > > > > > Changes to the FreeBSD Support Model > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Over the past several months, the teams responsible for supporting the > > FreeBSD operating system discussed the current support model, and how > > that model can be improved to provide better support for FreeBSD users > > and consumers. > > > > The changes below greatly improve FreeBSD support, reduce turnaround time > > for Errata Notices and Security Advisories, provide consistency between > > binary package sets and the underlying FreeBSD base system version, and > > reduce the amount of time before new features are included in the official > > FreeBSD binary package sets. > > > > > > Changes Proposed in a New FreeBSD Support Model > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The proposed changes include: > > > > - Moving from a point release-based support model to a set of releases > > from a branch with a guaranteed support lifetime. > > > > - Resolving our arbitrary (and unofficial) 5-year branch lifetime > > guarantee. The support policy is that the stable/X branch will be > > supported for 5 years (minimum) from the point X.0-RELEASE is released. > > We now guarantee a 5-year lifetime on the branch, regardless of how many > > releases are built from the branch. Additionally, a "last minute" > > release from the stable/X branch does not constitute expanding the support > > lifetime for the branch as a whole for an additional two years. > > > > - The Security Officer or Ports Management Team may extend support for any > > individual numbered release or branch at their discretion, in > > exceptional cases. > > > > - A new stable/ branch release will not occur before two years after the > > X.0-RELEASE from the prior branch. This limits the number of > > simultaneous supported branches, which will greatly reduce the overall > > number of branches that must be maintained and build-tested for > > Security Advisories and Errata Notices, reducing turnaround time. > > > > - Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous > > release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which > > consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release. During this > > three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still > > be issued for the previous release, as necessary. > > > > > > How These Changes Benefit FreeBSD Consumers > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > These changes to the FreeBSD support policy will reduce turnaround time > > for security advisories and errata notices, provide binary package sets > > that are more closely aligned with the latest FreeBSD release from a given > > branch, and clearly define the minimum length of time that a branch will > > receive support. > > > > > > When The New FreeBSD Support Policy Will Become Effective > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > These changes are planned to become effective with FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE, > > which is still a number of months away. > > > > FreeBSD releases from earlier branches will continue to be supported in > > accordance with the policy that was in effect at the time they were > > released. > > > > > > Deficiencies in the Current FreeBSD Support Model > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > - The FreeBSD support model is release-based, versus branch-based. > > Specifically, we determine if a FreeBSD release will be a normal- or an > > extended-support release in the final phases of the release cycle, while > > in reality we have no way to determine how successful the release is > > until weeks or months later. > > > > - We do not clearly define how long the stable/X branch will be supported > > after its creation. Since FreeBSD 5.x, we have historically supported a > > stable/X branch for a minimum of five years after the X.0-RELEASE is > > available. The length of time is not a defined policy, which can make > > it difficult to decide which branch to track. > > > > - The current support model prevents building third-party binary packages > > for the most recent release from a stable/ branch because we must > > provide packages that can be run on the oldest supported release from > > the branch. > > > > - Ports maintainers must support the oldest supported release on the > > branch within the Ports Collection. This adds significant complexity to > > the tree in general, but also prevents enabling new features by default. > > An example is the upgrade to WITH_NEW_XORG where these features depend > > on changes to the base system that are only available in X.Z-RELEASE. > > > > - The support model can overlap in non-intuitive ways, making it difficult > > to decide when evaluating FreeBSD features versus support timeframe from > > any given branch. When changes to the support model were initially > > being discussed, the FreeBSD supported releases were: > > - 8.4-RELEASE: June 30, 2015 > > - 9.1-RELEASE: December 31, 2014 > > - 9.2-RELEASE: September 30, 2014 > > > > (Note that in this case support for the newer 9.2 release ends before > > support for FreeBSD 9.1.) > > > > - A new release from a branch automatically extends the support lifetime > > by two years, minimum. If X.Y-RELEASE was initially planned to be the > > final release from the stable/X branch, it is an extended-support > > release by definition. If it is necessary to follow X.Y-RELEASE with > > X.Z-RELEASE for any reason, we would have two concurrent > > extended-support releases from the same branch in sequence. This has a > > serious impact on the quality of an update when there are multiple > > supported releases on a branch. The problem becomes worse when the > > oldest supported release on the branch has a longer support lifetime > > than the newest release on the branch. > > > > > > Key Items Considered in Changes to the FreeBSD Support Model > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Some of the things that should be included in a new FreeBSD support > > model include: > > > > - Guaranteeing, and explicitly stating, the support lifetime of the > > stable/X branch as a whole, versus independently determining the > > support lifetime of the individual releases from the stable/X branch. > > - Providing package sets that are compatible with the latest release from > > the branch, ensuring that new features introduced into the FreeBSD base > > system can be enabled by default in binary package builds. > > - Security Advisories and Errata Notices should be more aligned between > > src/ and ports/. There is an endless list of edge cases with this > > particular point, but consider a situation where a critical security > > vulnerability is discovered, and the underlying code has changed between > > X.Y-RELEASE and X.Z-RELEASE. In addition to the possibility of > > regression in one (or both) of the supported releases due to subtle > > changes in the security fix, it introduces potential delay in providing > > the security fix as the number of supported releases increases. Each > > supported release adds to the amount of time it takes for: > > > > - 1) patching the vulnerability, > > - 2) testing the patch, > > - 3) verifying the patch is correct, and > > - 4) building the freebsd-update(8) binary update bits. > > > > If a problem is discovered at any time during step (4), procedure resets > > to step (1). (It should be stressed that this is not due to lack of > > hardware, but the order in which the various steps of issuing Security > > Advisories and Errata Notices must occur.) > > > > - Providing a support model that is easier more predictable and easier to > > follow. > > -- Michael W. Lucas - mwlucas@michaelwlucas.com, Twitter @mwlauthor http://www.MichaelWLucas.com/, http://blather.MichaelWLucas.com/ From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 28 14:49:23 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from hub.FreeBSD.org (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08641ABB; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:49:22 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:49:19 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: New FreeBSD support model Message-ID: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J/zg8ciPNcraoWb6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:49:23 -0000 --J/zg8ciPNcraoWb6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We've heard back from Alfred and Michael, and I'll assume that the lack of response from the others in CC was due to disinterest or lack of objections. Where do we go from here? It's 3 days until the end of January. Glen On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 02:51:19PM +0000, Gavin Atkinson wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Over the past year or so, many discussions have been had both internally= =20 > and with vendors about the current FreeBSD support model, and how it coul= d=20 > be improved to better suit the (often conflicting) needs of downstream=20 > vendors. >=20 > Below is our current draft of the new support model. I'm sending this to= =20 > you as you represent a good cross-section of different downstream users o= f=20 > FreeBSD. We're aiming to make these changes soon, and are interested in= =20 > knowing what else a consumer of FreeBSD, like your company, might need to= =20 > know in order to have a smoother transition. Michael, I'm including you= =20 > for any insight you may wish to offer from your recent efforts in=20 > researching FreeBSD sysadmin-y things. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Gavin >=20 >=20 > Changes to the FreeBSD Support Model > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Over the past several months, the teams responsible for supporting the > FreeBSD operating system discussed the current support model, and how > that model can be improved to provide better support for FreeBSD users > and consumers. >=20 > The changes below greatly improve FreeBSD support, reduce turnaround time= =20 > for Errata Notices and Security Advisories, provide consistency between= =20 > binary package sets and the underlying FreeBSD base system version, and= =20 > reduce the amount of time before new features are included in the officia= l=20 > FreeBSD binary package sets. >=20 >=20 > Changes Proposed in a New FreeBSD Support Model > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > The proposed changes include: >=20 > - Moving from a point release-based support model to a set of releases > from a branch with a guaranteed support lifetime. >=20 > - Resolving our arbitrary (and unofficial) 5-year branch lifetime=20 > guarantee. The support policy is that the stable/X branch will be=20 > supported for 5 years (minimum) from the point X.0-RELEASE is released.= =20 > We now guarantee a 5-year lifetime on the branch, regardless of how man= y=20 > releases are built from the branch. Additionally, a "last minute"=20 > release from the stable/X branch does not constitute expanding the supp= ort=20 > lifetime for the branch as a whole for an additional two years. >=20 > - The Security Officer or Ports Management Team may extend support for an= y=20 > individual numbered release or branch at their discretion, in=20 > exceptional cases. >=20 > - A new stable/ branch release will not occur before two years after the= =20 > X.0-RELEASE from the prior branch. This limits the number of=20 > simultaneous supported branches, which will greatly reduce the overall= =20 > number of branches that must be maintained and build-tested for=20 > Security Advisories and Errata Notices, reducing turnaround time. >=20 > - Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous=20 > release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which=20 > consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release. During this=20 > three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still= =20 > be issued for the previous release, as necessary. >=20 >=20 > How These Changes Benefit FreeBSD Consumers > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > These changes to the FreeBSD support policy will reduce turnaround time = =20 > for security advisories and errata notices, provide binary package sets= =20 > that are more closely aligned with the latest FreeBSD release from a give= n=20 > branch, and clearly define the minimum length of time that a branch will= =20 > receive support. >=20 >=20 > When The New FreeBSD Support Policy Will Become Effective > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > These changes are planned to become effective with FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE, > which is still a number of months away. >=20 > FreeBSD releases from earlier branches will continue to be supported in= =20 > accordance with the policy that was in effect at the time they were=20 > released. >=20 >=20 > Deficiencies in the Current FreeBSD Support Model > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > - The FreeBSD support model is release-based, versus branch-based.=20 > Specifically, we determine if a FreeBSD release will be a normal- or an= =20 > extended-support release in the final phases of the release cycle, whil= e=20 > in reality we have no way to determine how successful the release is=20 > until weeks or months later. >=20 > - We do not clearly define how long the stable/X branch will be supported= =20 > after its creation. Since FreeBSD 5.x, we have historically supported = a=20 > stable/X branch for a minimum of five years after the X.0-RELEASE is=20 > available. The length of time is not a defined policy, which can make= =20 > it difficult to decide which branch to track. >=20 > - The current support model prevents building third-party binary packages= =20 > for the most recent release from a stable/ branch because we must=20 > provide packages that can be run on the oldest supported release from= =20 > the branch. >=20 > - Ports maintainers must support the oldest supported release on the=20 > branch within the Ports Collection. This adds significant complexity to= =20 > the tree in general, but also prevents enabling new features by default= =2E =20 > An example is the upgrade to WITH_NEW_XORG where these features depend > on changes to the base system that are only available in X.Z-RELEASE. >=20 > - The support model can overlap in non-intuitive ways, making it difficul= t=20 > to decide when evaluating FreeBSD features versus support timeframe fro= m=20 > any given branch. When changes to the support model were initially=20 > being discussed, the FreeBSD supported releases were: > - 8.4-RELEASE: June 30, 2015 > - 9.1-RELEASE: December 31, 2014 > - 9.2-RELEASE: September 30, 2014 >=20 > (Note that in this case support for the newer 9.2 release ends before= =20 > support for FreeBSD 9.1.) >=20 > - A new release from a branch automatically extends the support lifetime= =20 > by two years, minimum. If X.Y-RELEASE was initially planned to be the= =20 > final release from the stable/X branch, it is an extended-support=20 > release by definition. If it is necessary to follow X.Y-RELEASE with= =20 > X.Z-RELEASE for any reason, we would have two concurrent=20 > extended-support releases from the same branch in sequence. This has a= =20 > serious impact on the quality of an update when there are multiple=20 > supported releases on a branch. The problem becomes worse when the=20 > oldest supported release on the branch has a longer support lifetime=20 > than the newest release on the branch. >=20 >=20 > Key Items Considered in Changes to the FreeBSD Support Model > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Some of the things that should be included in a new FreeBSD support > model include: >=20 > - Guaranteeing, and explicitly stating, the support lifetime of the=20 > stable/X branch as a whole, versus independently determining the=20 > support lifetime of the individual releases from the stable/X branch. > - Providing package sets that are compatible with the latest release from= =20 > the branch, ensuring that new features introduced into the FreeBSD base= =20 > system can be enabled by default in binary package builds. > - Security Advisories and Errata Notices should be more aligned between= =20 > src/ and ports/. There is an endless list of edge cases with this=20 > particular point, but consider a situation where a critical security=20 > vulnerability is discovered, and the underlying code has changed betwee= n=20 > X.Y-RELEASE and X.Z-RELEASE. In addition to the possibility of=20 > regression in one (or both) of the supported releases due to subtle=20 > changes in the security fix, it introduces potential delay in providing= =20 > the security fix as the number of supported releases increases. Each= =20 > supported release adds to the amount of time it takes for: >=20 > - 1) patching the vulnerability, > - 2) testing the patch, > - 3) verifying the patch is correct, and > - 4) building the freebsd-update(8) binary update bits. >=20 > If a problem is discovered at any time during step (4), procedure reset= s=20 > to step (1). (It should be stressed that this is not due to lack of=20 > hardware, but the order in which the various steps of issuing Security= =20 > Advisories and Errata Notices must occur.) >=20 > - Providing a support model that is easier more predictable and easier to= =20 > follow. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > support-model@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/support-model > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "support-model-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 --J/zg8ciPNcraoWb6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUyPbvAAoJEAMUWKVHj+KTBOoP/1pMSVvZaLPsLvlgLlIlRu3N 8wit8bwZVZKPd8855ixFgRInUfC6M1SbXAFP47wLidBscxXK/s2yz640C2vZozvK RXqpW+ElqL8uj4R+aOyV1qAhLmA1oNK7y5L2Z9hGuYPXyvGfiv0S6l96dATsdszW aOx2xvn7vB4/zhrZfFi+zMIfKkT4b6isi/DOgU3EnTeHhvqrsRklklaJRlYjj6Ow 9qqMVeWjynPS70UWGQHM4Mgz2ia6Qtuq0NUxl67BuWXd5d5wjWM0jZmWVebE5DtW ZgohHTxFyNOS+yMCbrncxHtZq5ipKZoFgadAB/MSEjKP2NmqXa+pQW64+iZ2aEQu LiAgde0FO3xdmSnErqpu+cUeLKqIA4PRtgghqSjzy2M+hgxMrpCdvKytM4InHBLs C0uXkyKSHXFVDkeaDbiFYy24xaCydtOARU61uNSJjHNwEAostTLNlnXGUN75HrZM nrCsG6K5ITfbO5kQtRy60WFSenMZQxmKCkMxgZu1+CrSJdZffk2u4Iyqurm8ViO5 ySTOIW8c9EqYcDG89alEk/E5RpiQIR0++NnNdem4p98SizcbeMP9LSKrClnjhdZm veqg1kAfW6kgw9cDBlNX1ONzwtvTDXNk7MyzTx+vrWYIxXf8uSWKgmCG+afs+F5E iw13rhEfDUm6rlEd6mC2 =o7K/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J/zg8ciPNcraoWb6-- From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 28 14:51:39 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from hub.FreeBSD.org (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 875ECAF7; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:51:39 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:51:36 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: New FreeBSD support model Message-ID: <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0XMZdl/q8hSSmFeD" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:51:40 -0000 --0XMZdl/q8hSSmFeD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By the way, I think this is the type of topic that is ideal for the "hat summit" DES proposed several months (over a year now?) ago. I think those attending BSDCan should be prepared to sit in a locked room so we can hash out the unresolved issues. Glen On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 02:49:19PM +0000, Glen Barber wrote: > We've heard back from Alfred and Michael, and I'll assume that the lack > of response from the others in CC was due to disinterest or lack of > objections. >=20 > Where do we go from here? >=20 > It's 3 days until the end of January. >=20 > Glen >=20 --0XMZdl/q8hSSmFeD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUyPd4AAoJEAMUWKVHj+KTFGsP/jY/rS7l1hTLn47R+zcmNLAw sbTX2TuZ/H/iNn1KkzS7UAmdasCgvN+CwfJMGzSO+rUr6az5Q7L3P8JDwnnarW4g +NWU99w3mCimuu1TH4GFrUDF6Q8+1Zyz5gBJONzzTNv1lFQ/m+fSNMYClClli67z Wzf+r1zyPFhm0es6la9MYUf6qyP0Q3GUe1TqVWK5qTDDLhWxuWUgNH34jtUqcb8C YT3RAzTAVJMaiIPtF7R6x+KmjaooY/rcq7s1tD48eDER70dkFU1mGWUJepnHV75g NuiowaFdFGHr8E71DIj2sZESHO8KGEmd945Kr1apxw78extkxwDH6hVzBUSJw+Yl +qbAhwWkJbkSgpHSImpGME4wlUDScu86YQTV6qXfaHJ/thH90R59XQaz55Z7vCzs cSobb1IwbSqX5gwylSdr8j1+HnAGgFnhxeCAZjxU0MHZDLD2fDmeT6POaPXD24pp uWgh0ABuZ/M+v2Qs9Ei20RtB2eRaYWOpUVIj6Cy2tDPhqUT027qasF9o4uQpjvHb UFnByzXuJM9XcpoYU2bxoaXTKDhNYyBU1CKQLgtaa4ZiHt/YhknOUeHYznHsT3jP 6Ic/Cc9RuVi3VS8/MVnRhSHrLpEpRdJvMSendoKGBkCNn7+RXUR3tk+DRBxtZxPR nej7rJ/TsO/49/i36MVm =sWw/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0XMZdl/q8hSSmFeD-- From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 28 15:36:40 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DFDC931; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 15:36:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vps.hungerhost.com (vps.hungerhost.com [216.38.53.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 327012EC; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 15:36:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from cpe-72-229-165-78.nyc.res.rr.com ([72.229.165.78]:38894 helo=[172.16.19.1]) by vps.hungerhost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1YGUfU-0003ca-4k; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 10:36:37 -0500 From: "George Neville-Neil" To: "Glen Barber" Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 10:36:25 -0500 Message-ID: <44121F26-AAC4-4782-A3D0-54B79D79E221@neville-neil.com> In-Reply-To: <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_MailMate_AA765779-51F7-43CC-BA12-A2ED55315CE0_="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: MailMate (1.8r5035) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - vps.hungerhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - neville-neil.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: vps.hungerhost.com: authenticated_id: gnn@neville-neil.com Cc: support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 15:36:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 3156 and 4880). --=_MailMate_AA765779-51F7-43CC-BA12-A2ED55315CE0_= Content-Type: text/plain I say do the damned thing already. Best, George On 28 Jan 2015, at 9:51, Glen Barber wrote: > By the way, I think this is the type of topic that is ideal for the "hat > summit" DES proposed several months (over a year now?) ago. > > I think those attending BSDCan should be prepared to sit in a locked > room so we can hash out the unresolved issues. > > Glen > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 02:49:19PM +0000, Glen Barber wrote: >> We've heard back from Alfred and Michael, and I'll assume that the lack >> of response from the others in CC was due to disinterest or lack of >> objections. >> >> Where do we go from here? >> >> It's 3 days until the end of January. >> >> Glen >> --=_MailMate_AA765779-51F7-43CC-BA12-A2ED55315CE0_= Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAlTJAfoACgkQYdh2wUQKM9IsrgCglyGEPhqZzLttlRZNrjq2DwQL U/YAoNoewV2lGadCFx/UShSXq1jQCwKD =NdWn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_MailMate_AA765779-51F7-43CC-BA12-A2ED55315CE0_=-- From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 09:36:54 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A4B9546; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 09:36:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA888E1; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 09:36:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nine.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp-int.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30BEE579A; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 09:36:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by nine.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D6EB17DF9; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:35:32 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Glen Barber Subject: Re: RFC: New FreeBSD support model References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:35:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> (Glen Barber's message of "Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:49:19 +0000") Message-ID: <86a90wwt97.fsf@nine.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 09:36:54 -0000 Glen Barber writes: > We've heard back from Alfred and Michael, and I'll assume that the lack > of response from the others in CC was due to disinterest or lack of > objections. Sorry, lack of objections on my part, based on the assumption that this is identical to the Google Docs document we worked on. Right now I'm more interested in talking about how we're going to achieve this: - how do we build and distribute release packages? - how do we build and distribute SA / EN updates? - what needs to change in bsdinstall? - do we want installworld to register packages, and how do we do it? and other questions I can't think of at the moment. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 09:39:07 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FF0757E; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 09:39:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FDAF8F7; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 09:39:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nine.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp-int.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5210657A0; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 09:39:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by nine.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AA1E47DFC; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:37:57 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Glen Barber Subject: Re: RFC: New FreeBSD support model References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:37:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> (Glen Barber's message of "Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:51:36 +0000") Message-ID: <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 09:39:07 -0000 Glen Barber writes: > By the way, I think this is the type of topic that is ideal for the "hat > summit" DES proposed several months (over a year now?) ago. Yes. It's not too late to try to convene one if a sufficient number of people from each hat team show an interest. I'm willing to look into hosting it. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 09:43:23 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 624466A2; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 09:43:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vps.hungerhost.com (vps.hungerhost.com [216.38.53.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 376779AF; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 09:43:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [109.236.131.146] (port=61776 helo=[172.16.19.1]) by vps.hungerhost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1YIDXN-0006Pi-Am; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 04:43:21 -0500 From: "George Neville-Neil" To: "Dag-Erling =?utf-8?q?Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=" Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:43:09 +0100 Message-ID: <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> In-Reply-To: <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.8r5035) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - vps.hungerhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - neville-neil.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: vps.hungerhost.com: authenticated_id: gnn@neville-neil.com Cc: support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 09:43:23 -0000 On 2 Feb 2015, at 10:37, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Glen Barber writes: >> By the way, I think this is the type of topic that is ideal for the >> "hat >> summit" DES proposed several months (over a year now?) ago. > > Yes. It's not too late to try to convene one if a sufficient number > of > people from each hat team show an interest. I'm willing to look into > hosting it. > While I am in favor of summits, if we want to do this before June it's going to take time and money to achieve. None of the parties live anywhere near each other, and, I think, we currently all have full time gigs. Not saying it can't be done, but pointing out the practicalities. If we're going to do something like this, what is the absolutely necessary set of people who would need to be present to "get this damned thing done" ? Best, George From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 10:02:51 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34BE5B5E; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:02:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77AEB8E; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:02:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nine.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp-int.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0DEE57F6; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:02:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by nine.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A54347E05; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 11:02:37 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "George Neville-Neil" Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 11:02:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> (George Neville-Neil's message of "Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:43:09 +0100") Message-ID: <86wq40vdfm.fsf@nine.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:02:51 -0000 "George Neville-Neil" writes: > While I am in favor of summits, if we want to do this before June it's > going to take time and money to achieve. It's going to take time and money no matter when or where we do it. I can probably manage something at the University of Oslo during Easter, if that helps wrt $dayjob. I believe classes are out the entire week (March 30th through April 3rd). Oslo is expensive, but no worse than many of the places EuroBSDCon has been held in the past. > If we're going to do something like this, what is the absolutely > necessary set of people who would need to be present to "get this > damned thing done" ? Two or three people from each team, with no overlap. I don't think this mailing list is the proper forum to discuss a HatSummit, though. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 10:05:12 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4B13B94; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:05:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vps.hungerhost.com (vps.hungerhost.com [216.38.53.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99697B9F; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:05:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [109.236.131.146] (port=63704 helo=[172.16.19.1]) by vps.hungerhost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1YIDsT-0008Lj-UO; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 05:05:10 -0500 From: "George Neville-Neil" To: "Dag-Erling =?utf-8?q?Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=" Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 11:05:09 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86wq40vdfm.fsf@nine.des.no> References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> <86wq40vdfm.fsf@nine.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.8r5035) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - vps.hungerhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - neville-neil.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: vps.hungerhost.com: authenticated_id: gnn@neville-neil.com Cc: support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:05:12 -0000 On 2 Feb 2015, at 11:02, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > "George Neville-Neil" writes: >> While I am in favor of summits, if we want to do this before June it's >> going to take time and money to achieve. > > It's going to take time and money no matter when or where we do it. > > I can probably manage something at the University of Oslo during Easter, > if that helps wrt $dayjob. I believe classes are out the entire week > (March 30th through April 3rd). Oslo is expensive, but no worse than > many of the places EuroBSDCon has been held in the past. > >> If we're going to do something like this, what is the absolutely >> necessary set of people who would need to be present to "get this >> damned thing done" ? > > Two or three people from each team, with no overlap. > > I don't think this mailing list is the proper forum to discuss a > HatSummit, though. > Well, it does have all the stakeholders, doesn't it? Best, George From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 10:28:43 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDB7BE64 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:28:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:3cd3:cd67:fafa:3d78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "ca.infracaninophile.co.uk" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83713D93 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:28:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ox-dell39.ox.adestra.com (no-reverse-dns.metronet-uk.com [85.199.232.226] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id t12ASVhj072177 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 10:28:31 GMT (envelope-from matthew@freebsd.org) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none header.from=freebsd.org DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk t12ASVhj072177 Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/t12ASVhj072177; dkim=none reason="no signature"; dkim-adsp=none; dkim-atps=neutral X-Authentication-Warning: lucid-nonsense.infracaninophile.co.uk: Host no-reverse-dns.metronet-uk.com [85.199.232.226] (may be forged) claimed to be ox-dell39.ox.adestra.com Message-ID: <54CF5143.4010609@freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:28:19 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: support-model@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> <86wq40vdfm.fsf@nine.des.no> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EhdSUrtah1PWNw5Wrt7RNGbvIaxPUq5hD" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.6 at lucid-nonsense.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lucid-nonsense.infracaninophile.co.uk X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:28:43 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --EhdSUrtah1PWNw5Wrt7RNGbvIaxPUq5hD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/02/15 10:05, George Neville-Neil wrote: > On 2 Feb 2015, at 11:02, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: >=20 >> "George Neville-Neil" writes: >>> While I am in favor of summits, if we want to do this before June it'= s >>> going to take time and money to achieve. >> >> It's going to take time and money no matter when or where we do it. >> >> I can probably manage something at the University of Oslo during Easte= r, >> if that helps wrt $dayjob. I believe classes are out the entire week >> (March 30th through April 3rd). Oslo is expensive, but no worse than >> many of the places EuroBSDCon has been held in the past. >> >>> If we're going to do something like this, what is the absolutely >>> necessary set of people who would need to be present to "get this >>> damned thing done" ? >> >> Two or three people from each team, with no overlap. >> >> I don't think this mailing list is the proper forum to discuss a >> HatSummit, though. >> >=20 > Well, it does have all the stakeholders, doesn't it? Did you mean the Hat Summit to concentrate on the new Support Model, or did you intend it to have a wider remit? A trip to Oslo sounds fun, but it's quite an expense for a day or so's meetings even though I am already on the right continent. Cheers, Matthew --EhdSUrtah1PWNw5Wrt7RNGbvIaxPUq5hD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUz1FDXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXQxOUYxNTRFQ0JGMTEyRTUwNTQ0RTNGMzAw MDUxM0YxMEUwQTlFNEU3AAoJEABRPxDgqeTni84P/iTaGnPSW9DmBm4T++qdDs1n UaffrJkGJUW0JNfiHgaL9RQRMRdUBmHKDNbhkO5Fa4bDaOpEGCiwuvZ/yA1NIaOb Q2UGvYNj8a+lT8goUqC5qiDyzLEbcE2rruoqlQL51lgWs8ikviPdxeYPfE8majr6 0BLd4zED8yeZEwhOTz8Xjtj8O/KMRodY7g+KNYRDtg3FMuwpr2mKw/pGv60ZbhcN VevLR+4rMInAOjoG1ENsqWYzxg0vGq1TZb20HQ9bTB9iEOrSay/v+mZvOkzyxag+ 4eOzC1/qHX6ddqlDGhOhrEor1T7DKWHPfo68W/6wXB/odWXw7V3oJ6xrSUW7780T EfjMMrhgYC5k0Ydi3kphmQ2t/bBTEunZGzVnGSuWOEHtCjWCOXhjGn1+LrVMS7CW QG9qtRJScFHr3ohlHUxHZFo+SW0zJlbK+/hEuqDCJh928NoBy+mAK+HCK0gWWbzK NlnllWBI4Ovo8I3GrwpNWunzZLhNTxzQub4qcnLmgdyiRxfw7J0H7ISpw1/vd0j5 erQf/9EMat1i9sfRhAt304qu49L+a2daq+jr7a25KxFrJ3LgJlOfVpxaOhZH1JsG CoOmCfgA+NR+h6I461lHj4eX9kqa/JIXuCdMChnTF+bQSFXxfIE788PTi48ztdsC fDXUnWNwMrEd9z4GbsoY =N7JG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EhdSUrtah1PWNw5Wrt7RNGbvIaxPUq5hD-- From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 13:17:47 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from hub.FreeBSD.org (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2316D1E; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 13:17:46 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 13:17:42 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: George Neville-Neil Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model Message-ID: <20150202131742.GC29056@hub.FreeBSD.org> References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hYooF8G/hrfVAmum" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:17:47 -0000 --hYooF8G/hrfVAmum Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 02, 2015 at 10:43:09AM +0100, George Neville-Neil wrote: > On 2 Feb 2015, at 10:37, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >=20 > >Glen Barber writes: > >>By the way, I think this is the type of topic that is ideal for the "hat > >>summit" DES proposed several months (over a year now?) ago. > > > >Yes. It's not too late to try to convene one if a sufficient number of > >people from each hat team show an interest. I'm willing to look into > >hosting it. > > >=20 > While I am in favor of summits, if we want to do this before June > it's going to take time and money to achieve. None of the parties > live anywhere near each other, and, I think, we currently all > have full time gigs. Not saying it can't be done, but pointing out > the practicalities. >=20 > If we're going to do something like this, what is the absolutely > necessary set of people who would need to be present to "get this > damned thing done" ? >=20 What I meant with regard to the hat summit is that this is the type of topic that would, at least in my opinion, shorten turnaround time by having everyone in the same room. For the immediate issue at hand, I think it makes more sense for everyone that will be attending BSDCan 2015 to plan to have a day with nothing else scheduled. I did not mean we should have a hat summit to finish what should have been done months ago. The last thing we need right now is to be distracted with more time consuming matters. Glen --hYooF8G/hrfVAmum Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUz3jxAAoJEAMUWKVHj+KTO64P/RtY7RGWK+ilTO5mjqHBF1E9 +dwTw0DbG6E1E69WusUrIRv9Zdn4k9fa+uJTTRM95kPFE/CyC3VfQGz24OiArqrY 65OWwMKxIMM0fl/3YUi4PDNBWDOYAcB797NFZgJ8dMkhBwct3FfR79y1Ur7QBFoy ByvOg2fdAfg7RD1qSVT/xqi1AROHCib/JYHK1unO9gzvKg1NOb8EfDlKBSaGTC8d Z8y9JMZY2SCM8C3somtG76eppH6GwrszryPAXDH8SL2/+V42MMeplyRsmp/+3yC0 si2QNzF+nP22+80iDxRV+ktA9BPoXTMaxwKcyifK+q6DbBfoaVG6fpLDQJxBQrn4 rznRU+tP2VP8C1HNG1HTDodOvE9XsghD2+ndjkhERkCYhysj3ZHs5opzftkYpoaf u0XTDWBrvZZVsYXyC9DtJBCUF8r9ji3ishbeY97hvEvltT7+/cO6LFeiT5iNgOZ5 tbpSFQj0L2qQaD0Web63i28yk4fT/pK12erOB7gWWWRC9f/AYAKuiJNgUovMFZQq 2+oyVcZO2hqfFlFhvDn9ALZAYAG1IcNps1QoplYEogpC52nAeC2YBlzHkGRSXNSc 2zu1GPmef5hbTzAsttvapzXWUf0Fyvh8JoiNqQHZqjwhB6gS5oIC1lBke8/DmWas qZ75rngnfYK7G4vRd3Vj =w9hT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hYooF8G/hrfVAmum-- From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 13:24:08 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from hub.FreeBSD.org (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0561E3F; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 13:24:07 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 13:24:04 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: George Neville-Neil Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model Message-ID: <20150202132404.GD29056@hub.FreeBSD.org> References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> <86wq40vdfm.fsf@nine.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="g7w8+K/95kPelPD2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:24:08 -0000 --g7w8+K/95kPelPD2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 02, 2015 at 11:05:09AM +0100, George Neville-Neil wrote: > On 2 Feb 2015, at 11:02, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >=20 > > "George Neville-Neil" writes: > >> While I am in favor of summits, if we want to do this before June it's > >> going to take time and money to achieve. > > > > It's going to take time and money no matter when or where we do it. > > > > I can probably manage something at the University of Oslo during Easter, > > if that helps wrt $dayjob. I believe classes are out the entire week > > (March 30th through April 3rd). Oslo is expensive, but no worse than > > many of the places EuroBSDCon has been held in the past. > > > >> If we're going to do something like this, what is the absolutely > >> necessary set of people who would need to be present to "get this > >> damned thing done" ? > > > > Two or three people from each team, with no overlap. > > > > I don't think this mailing list is the proper forum to discuss a > > HatSummit, though. > > >=20 > Well, it does have all the stakeholders, doesn't it? >=20 IMHO, no. I am the only one from re@ on the list. DES, Gavin and myself are the only ones from secteam@, with overlap. Baptiste is the only one from portmgr, with overlap. Glen --g7w8+K/95kPelPD2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUz3p0AAoJEAMUWKVHj+KTMAQP+weWWBjbhhB7OaUV4RKsSJsE i5h79UZhGMW5g8xjEj8urqr1uvGZB4gn4+lBzWoY3fl5Sl3K97SUXhMhKIlY+nbU f0JVllJF5OvzkuC7MliV2y2IT7yvwShubsmtOD1s+0k6Am1Lvx+WzSyLAo56bhBg m8x9M2WWAo35mT4YjShjl4kjt+lpYY/DB9H0yVFMkWBJ1I0qIcT3TbsSARb5b64p tuNVnWuZK2dh2yULxnYTHOUywEghPsT+ndNoVLM/C53q/bqA+XMI9By/UfBx5Z+Y DXemkhK41ipoIeChT23MvICqajUNf9/nMfY4butvUF0wZZaI9uw4RgpuNmCQbyfP CPoAMYIaEBGBd1k8MY5uMquUUJ4sbL36YPEbLaF0vIKCshE9rJFgP0qJ7M2KQquz P0htHT+zbWkvGZ2oAlwcWtUYIi5oRadNrkHC3x3FAJ66ErKVyEUkA7JsbZRnVg9Z K3qu3Jg0DOC490iWxmKlBlyWcmEFCIEEGj9+v75XI1Y6deZDZam+Ycp8P6mOw7aS 3ZFMJ9+lOmFl4U9tsrC79FskOrv+hZjAFpfuXbefMJS3raEQLyrVOmdyLtNb9PK5 wwEVZPDp/I41RK+LOdF0Zv+hjJU+f3kAqO1AOijW2MShxxvqY2iaCiGxo+kVPrz4 WN8ZXiFhhiZis+1V5TAx =y+KE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --g7w8+K/95kPelPD2-- From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 13:42:08 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@FreeBSD.org Received: from hub.FreeBSD.org (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86B98100; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 13:42:07 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 13:42:03 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: RFC: New FreeBSD support model Message-ID: <20150202134203.GF29056@hub.FreeBSD.org> References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <86a90wwt97.fsf@nine.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TeJTyD9hb8KJN2Jy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86a90wwt97.fsf@nine.des.no> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Cc: support-model@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:42:08 -0000 --TeJTyD9hb8KJN2Jy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Disclaimer: This is not an intended to slow down progress, but to point out some issues that became apparent in some form since being on RE. On Mon, Feb 02, 2015 at 10:35:32AM +0100, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Glen Barber writes: > > We've heard back from Alfred and Michael, and I'll assume that the lack > > of response from the others in CC was due to disinterest or lack of > > objections. >=20 > Sorry, lack of objections on my part, based on the assumption that this > is identical to the Google Docs document we worked on. >=20 > Right now I'm more interested in talking about how we're going to > achieve this: >=20 > - how do we build and distribute release packages? > - how do we build and distribute SA / EN updates? These two are going to be particularly troublesome, I fear. One of the things I, as RE, do not like about our release engineering process is that it currently takes two separate teams to produce and publish a new release - RE for building and testing what is intended to be the release, be it -BETA, -RC, or -RELEASE, as well as SO/secteam for building binary upgrade bits. One of the specific problems that needs to be pointed out is that neither team has any insight into the other team's process or progress. This has caused problems on more than one occasion, for seemingly minor and/or simple changes, such as upgrading the release build machines (see r257136 and r258536, for example). > - what needs to change in bsdinstall? I think very little user-visible changes need to be made. We would still have the concept of a "default installation", with which the "base distribution" would be a meta-package of dependencies. > - do we want installworld to register packages, and how do we do it? >=20 I suspect the same (or similar) way local installation from the ports tree does now. > and other questions I can't think of at the moment. >=20 Glen --TeJTyD9hb8KJN2Jy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUz36rAAoJEAMUWKVHj+KTA0YP/09LifMF0UOk3+nVbFU2qPyh gNrEAWiI7bOMlPqmzqzCS2WKl4yBV5fNfUiwydGGvxHpqnADD+s+eqVPMNGyBbWN C5JYCbcOv2yDapi4tL6HGICJG637OU4LDsZww0O7riSqVKLHpR7nrUNgrq33EovH fAtSkAgqDnkHsagh1vYkKiO1B11yScmQ/+3yHPMq/Vo61/5L+/EqA7bMRmL+NW0g pNsJBn+BE1byvC90fPWav1A4twqrwUaafUbCn38+q13plirjFZF6ERYMvWXa3a+P f7eDY3S9uNhGRh1czixLBipjdDvSfMzpIWDj3MD9DNmbTZbNFqY3z0Y8Nt59pk5i HFEswEPWDBROH3qC8dB9isjEa/DOaDW0NZg0UYRfzLUJAzaFX2lxjbsiv1veV+Ji gesI+E+aEndFjGloNdJFf3ASMyJZOoUKJAsERW4UU97zu3WNoBDflQ9Sihzc++da 1s5uh7i6ecBXrCAMBAcP33+FW+3ySy4h8Q3zFZH5UPmEaXVNWjbJAEWqSuZkd3Hi iQGcX0r7NbNITtxgmtFw+XA4n7g0Si5D1eAhl4Dn/9y2+dJHlPkMY5asBHpXqvNO +zYPplETYx5Ks7NJAivf/M9ctkEVa6pxXAeInkCdpf0dTkdaVIsUHCTYynStdv5N H0erVXx9bnjEW8lsKYo8 =mcHM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TeJTyD9hb8KJN2Jy-- From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 14:08:27 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D19DD466 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 14:08:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:3cd3:cd67:fafa:3d78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "ca.infracaninophile.co.uk" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6028E989 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 14:08:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zero-gravitas.local (vpn-1.adestra.com [46.236.37.122]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id t12E8BjF076942 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 14:08:20 GMT (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none header.from=FreeBSD.org DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk t12E8BjF076942 Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/t12E8BjF076942; dkim=none reason="no signature"; dkim-adsp=none; dkim-atps=neutral X-Authentication-Warning: lucid-nonsense.infracaninophile.co.uk: Host vpn-1.adestra.com [46.236.37.122] claimed to be zero-gravitas.local Message-ID: <54CF84CA.4000904@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 14:08:10 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: support-model@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> <86wq40vdfm.fsf@nine.des.no> <20150202132404.GD29056@hub.FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20150202132404.GD29056@hub.FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.6 at lucid-nonsense.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lucid-nonsense.infracaninophile.co.uk X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 14:08:27 -0000 On 2015/02/02 13:24, Glen Barber wrote: > I am the only one from re@ on the list. DES, Gavin and myself are the > only ones from secteam@, with overlap. Baptiste is the only one from > portmgr, with overlap. If you feel there is anyone else that should be added to the support-model list, please feel free to suggest them. Given there's no public mailman interface for this, I guess additional list members would have to be added by postmaster@... given they have agreed to an invitation to join. I am happy to deal with all that. Cheers, Matthew From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 2 14:15:40 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84719560; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 14:15:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vps.hungerhost.com (vps.hungerhost.com [216.38.53.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53DC2A70; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 14:15:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dab-glb1-h-30-4.dab.02.net ([82.132.217.173]:10011 helo=[172.16.19.1]) by vps.hungerhost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1YIHms-000323-4C; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 09:15:39 -0500 From: "George Neville-Neil" To: "Matthew Seaman" Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 15:15:21 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <54CF5143.4010609@freebsd.org> References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> <86wq40vdfm.fsf@nine.des.no> <54CF5143.4010609@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_MailMate_1E1AAFA7-AA7F-467F-BD63-4F395ABA7A20_="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: MailMate (1.8r5035) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - vps.hungerhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - neville-neil.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: vps.hungerhost.com: authenticated_id: gnn@neville-neil.com Cc: support-model@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 14:15:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 3156 and 4880). --=_MailMate_1E1AAFA7-AA7F-467F-BD63-4F395ABA7A20_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2 Feb 2015, at 11:28, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 02/02/15 10:05, George Neville-Neil wrote: >> On 2 Feb 2015, at 11:02, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: >> >>> "George Neville-Neil" writes: >>>> While I am in favor of summits, if we want to do this before June it= 's >>>> going to take time and money to achieve. >>> >>> It's going to take time and money no matter when or where we do it. >>> >>> I can probably manage something at the University of Oslo during East= er, >>> if that helps wrt $dayjob. I believe classes are out the entire week= >>> (March 30th through April 3rd). Oslo is expensive, but no worse than= >>> many of the places EuroBSDCon has been held in the past. >>> >>>> If we're going to do something like this, what is the absolutely >>>> necessary set of people who would need to be present to "get this >>>> damned thing done" ? >>> >>> Two or three people from each team, with no overlap. >>> >>> I don't think this mailing list is the proper forum to discuss a >>> HatSummit, though. >>> >> >> Well, it does have all the stakeholders, doesn't it? > > Did you mean the Hat Summit to concentrate on the new Support Model, or= > did you intend it to have a wider remit? > Support Model. At least that was my point of view. This needs to get done. Also, is there any reason not to announce the new model ahead of doing th= e listed work? If we wait again, I fear we will never get this done. Best, George --=_MailMate_1E1AAFA7-AA7F-467F-BD63-4F395ABA7A20_= Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAlTPhnkACgkQYdh2wUQKM9K5kwCg2QUXQcLx9C6gvbasWLHg4jvN JvMAoKkxe1/p7vKPapg02dMYodoUryei =EKBM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_MailMate_1E1AAFA7-AA7F-467F-BD63-4F395ABA7A20_=-- From owner-support-model@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 8 16:56:18 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: support-model@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 701AC179; Sun, 8 Feb 2015 16:56:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7AFE56; Sun, 8 Feb 2015 16:56:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nine.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp-int.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098084987; Sun, 8 Feb 2015 16:56:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by nine.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D9621C49E; Sun, 8 Feb 2015 17:56:16 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "George Neville-Neil" Subject: Re: New FreeBSD support model References: <20150128144919.GG50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <20150128145136.GH50986@hub.FreeBSD.org> <8661bkwt56.fsf@nine.des.no> <4C501822-9E72-448C-A9B5-83B945E01EB9@neville-neil.com> <86wq40vdfm.fsf@nine.des.no> <54CF5143.4010609@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 17:56:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: (George Neville-Neil's message of "Mon, 02 Feb 2015 15:15:21 +0100") Message-ID: <86siegfikv.fsf@nine.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: support-model@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: support-model@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 16:56:18 -0000 "George Neville-Neil" writes: > Also, is there any reason not to announce the new model ahead of doing > the listed work? No. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no